How many of you read the comment section of the daily JUSTONEMORE blog? For those of you who do not, I invite you to read the hearty discussion pertaining to the October 8 entry, “Why I will vote” before you read the following blog.
In the course of a few days my new blog friend, Walt sent a few links comparing and contrasting Protestant and Catholic beliefs. I read the links in their entirety. In response to Walt’s effort, I would like to give my feedback.
DISCLAIMER: MY RESPONSE IS GIVEN IN A SPIRIT OF CHRISTIAN LOVE. MY DESIRE IS TO CONTINUE THE DIALOGUE WALT STARTED TWO WEEKS AGO. I THANK WALT FOR HIS FRANK RESPONSE, AND AS A RESULT I WANT TO OFFER MY CANDID REJOINDER.
With that said, let the dialogue begin.
First, I read Carl E. Olson’s explanation of Soteriology: Catholic V. Protestant. After reading it several times, I believe Olson nails the major differences between Catholics and Protestants…minus a few minor changes. I will note my changes after his quote.
Olson writes:
“Classical Protestant soteriology” refers generally to the teachings of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and their followers about the nature and means of salvation. Classical Protestantism emphasizes the salvation of man by a personal act of faith in response to God’s divine (and essentially external) favor, while Catholic soteriology emphasizes the divinization of man by the infusion of God’s grace, or supernatural life, especially through the sacraments. In Catholic doctrine, as articulated by the Council of Trent, justification and sanctification are distinct but intimately bound together in the process of salvation. In classical Protestantism they are separated, sometimes to the point where the two have little to do with each other: Justification is a matter of legal standing with God while sanctification is the subsequent inner work of the Holy Spirit. While Catholicism recognizes the primacy of faith, it also emphasizes the need for good works done by grace in the “working out” of salvation. Classical Protestantism stressed the doctrine of sola fide (“faith alone”), which denied that good works, no matter their source, had anything to do with justification.
I agree. The Protestant view of soteriology (salvation) is that man is saved “by a personal act of faith in response to God’s divine favor.” I would make two changes to his wording, however.
Foremost, in regard to the first sentence I would write, “Classical Protestant soteriology refers specifically to the teachings of the scripture.”
Protestants believe salvation is an act of faith because this is what the Bible teaches. Yes, Luther and Calvin taught salvation as an act of faith, yet Protestants believe this about salvation because this is what is taught in the Word of God.
Second, I would remove the parenthetical quote “(and essentially external)”. Salvation through Jesus Christ is both an internal and external job. Yes there are some external factors involved in our salvation, but God must change an individual’s heart, work from the inside out, to save them. Therefore, one must not neglect the inside job of salvation.
Note God’s Word teaches,
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Additionally, at CrossPoint we teach and believe that salvation is all of God and not of man. That is why Paul said,
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-10
Also, I agree partially with Olson’s assessment about Protestant beliefs about sanctification:
In classical Protestantism they are separated, sometimes to the point where the two have little to do with each other: Justification is a matter of legal standing with God while sanctification is the subsequent inner work of the Holy Spirit.
I agree justification is a matter of my legal standing as a redeemed sinner before a Holy God. And, sanctification is the Holy Spirit’s way of conforming us more into the image of Jesus Christ. Yet the two are not separate. One cannot be sanctified until he is justified, and one who is justified will be sanctified. Or, to put it another way, sanctification is not the result of my good works. Instead, good works are the result of my sanctification.
The Bible says,
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10
Note that God prepared the good works beforehand.
Again, the Bible says,
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:6
According to the Word of God, God began the good work, and God will complete the good work on the day of Jesus Christ. Thus, the work of salvation and sanctification is the result of God working in us. Our good works are the result of God’s work. Protestants do not believe our good works result in our sanctification.
Both the salvation and sanctification of our souls is the work of God. And, Protestants do not view these works as separate, having very little to do with each other. Instead, these works are of God, necessary and correlated strongly with one another.
Based on Olson’s view then, this is what I see as the great juxtaposition of the Catholic beliefs: if a person must work to be saved, justified, or sanctified, then their salvation is a matter of works and not faith. And that is contrary to Scripture.
At CrossPoint we believe and teach that regeneration, salvation, redemption, justification, sanctification, and our future glorification are all acts of God. God does all this in us by grace through faith.
Note the authority of God’s Word:
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Romans 4:1-4
Again, note who does the saving, the calling, the justifying and the glorifying:
29 For those whom he foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30 (emphasis added)
On Monday, I will pick up with another article Walt provided by Kenneth J. Powell entitled “Is Salvation an Act or a Process”.
Feel free to comment on today’s blog. Or you may want to wait until I work through this treatise throughout next week.
Again, let me express many thanks to my friend Walt for bringing this discussion to fruition.
http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/great-food-for-thought/
This is a little late but we are reading through the Bible again this year. Even though I’ve read the Bible through numerous times in many translations God never fails to reveal new truth or remind me of ones I learned in the past. I am especially enjoying reading it chronologically. Thanks for providing the format. We appreciate you.
Very interesting to find this subject matter being discussed. As a former Baptist (not actually a Protestant if we stick to the formal definition) of 47 years, and as a former member of Crosspoint who still misses the fellowship offered there, I will follow this commentary with great interest. I do not feel compelled nor motivated to enter into intellectual debates about who is right or wrong. Even further, I have, for the past year that I have been officially a participating member of the Roman Rite Catholic Church, felt far less compelled to defend my faith than the many years I participated in defense of the Southern Baptist Faith. I am experiencing blessings now that fill my cup. I have found much of what I was taught as a Baptist and which I, in teaching positions, even taught myself, about the Catholic faith to simply not be accurate.
The beauty of the Mass, the significant use of scripture, both Old and New Testament in every Mass, the focus upon the Eucharist (Lord’s Supper) as the foundation upon which every Mass is celebrated, the beauty of the Liturgical Music (I am in the choir, serve as a Cantor and a Lector), all combine to bring an experience that leaves my cup overflowing. My Baptist heritage, my salvation experience as a Baptist combine to enrich what I now experience. It also gives me an insight into how others perceive God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that unfortunately many of my fellow Catholics will not share.
I will pray for all involved in this exercise. Blessings to you Pastor Ryan and all of the wonderful things you and your fellow parishioners (whoops, members) do to lift up Jesus Christ.
There is room at the well for all who will come and drink!
Ryan:
First I want to thank you for the time and effort that you are putting into our discussion. I’ll be working all day today, but I will continue our dialogue sometime tomorrow at the latest.
More importantly, I’d like to thank you for your graciousness and hospitality to me. When I first found your blog, I was surfing specifically recent WordPress blog posts that had “catholic” included in them. (Frankly, I was looking for other Catholics to talk to!) When your blog popped up, and I read your line misstating what our Pope teaches, I thought “Oh no. Another pompous, arrogant Protester (who doesn’t really have a clue what the Catholic Church teaches) is dissing the Pope.” (You can’t even imagine how many of these I’ve encountered, in real life as much as online) I couldn’t let you slide without making my initial snarky comment. Will you forgive me for judging you and for not being more gracious to you?
I am a simple Catholic layman, in my 50’s, a husband and a father. I have no formal education in theology or Biblical Studies. I hold no ‘positions’ in our parish, and never have. Twenty-five years ago I experienced my personal encounter with Jesus, and began my intimate relationship with him. Having heard a televangelist say that most Catholics didn’t read the Bible and were going to hell (I was a Catholic who didn’t read the Bible, but I surely didn’t think I was going to hell!), I began to read the Gospel of Matthew. The words of Jesus lacerated my heart, and I was convicted by the Holy Spirit of my extreme selfishness and negligence of the Lord. I repented. I was going to leave the Catholic Church. But before I did, I wanted to make sure I was not making a mistake. I spent about two years researching every objection I could find about the Catholic Church. In every single case, I was able to find in Scripture or in the writings of the early Church Fathers (Justin, Gregory, Augustine, etc.) an answer to the objection. The real clincher was that no non-Catholic Christian or source could adequately explain to me why Protestants didn’t believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist/Holy Communion (John 6 & the Last Supper). So I made my decision that Jesus did indeed build his Church on Peter, and that Church was the pillar and bulwark of Truth (1 Tim 3:15). I have not one iota of regret.
I look forward to our continued discussions in a spirit of Christian love.
I am including an article concerning the SBC’s approach to an ecumenical group.
SBC leaders say no to ecumenical group
Published December 21, 2004
The Southern Baptist Convention has told organizers of Christian Churches Together in the USA, a fledgling ecumenical organization, that it has no interest in joining.
The new organization, set to formally launch next fall, aims to bring Catholics, mainline Protestants, Orthodox Christians, black churches, evangelicals and Pentecostals together for the first time.
“For the most part, we don’t do ecumenism because you usually have to give up some doctrinal beliefs or ignore or emphasize others to work with folks that really aren’t on the same path, share the same doctrines, the same beliefs-particularly about salvation,” said Martin King, a spokesman for the Southern Baptist Convention’s North American Mission Board.
Organizers had hoped to include Southern Baptists, the nation’s largest Protestant denomination with 16 million members. Other evangelical groups, such as the Salvation Army, the Evangelical Covenant Church and World Vision, have endorsed CCT.
“We just don’t see that it would help us in our efforts to help our Southern Baptist churches share our understanding of how to be saved, so we have no plans to participate,” King told Religion News Service.
So far, about two dozen denominations have formally endorsed CCT, and organizers cite interest from at least a dozen more. Officials say they hope to get to know each other better before committing the group to formal action.
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops voted in November to join CCT, the first time American Catholics have committed to work with Protestants. Catholics and Southern Baptists are not members of the National Council of Churches, which represents 36 mainline Protestant and Orthodox churches.
Earlier this year the Southern Baptist Convention voted to withdraw from the Baptist World Alliance, accusing the global body of a “leftward drift.”
Religion News Service
Thanks for sharing that article, PJ.
Sounds like the old ‘don’t cast your pearls before swine’ approach…which is prudent at times.
When you gather together a large mix like that, and some groups espouse gravely troublesome issues (e.g., accepting homosexuality as an alternate lifestyle), that presents a huge stumbling block. If you speak out against it, you’re accused of being intolerant and fostering disunity. If you don’t speak out, you may be sacrificing your values in order to promote a false ecumenism.
I have read everything and I am a little disappointed. It’s not about Baptist, Church of God, Methodist, Catholics, etc…it’s about Jesus. I think I clearly understand what T. D. Jakes (Pastor in Dallas, TX) when with tears in his eyes said, “Church is killing us.” I wrote him to find out what did he mean by this statement. His answer can be found by the responses that I have read. It’s all about Jesus. Period. I don’t need anyone’s opinion. I just need Jesus.
Phillip, I agree with Walt. A denomination must be particularly discerning about which group to join. And, I agree with the assessment in the article you provided, “For the most part, we don’t do ecumenism because you usually have to give up some doctrinal beliefs or ignore or emphasize others to work with folks that really aren’t on the same path, share the same doctrines, the same beliefs-particularly about salvation,” said Martin King, a spokesman for the Southern Baptist Convention’s North American Mission Board.
Additionally, I like King’s statement about seeing people saved: “We just don’t see that it would help us in our efforts to help our Southern Baptist churches share our understanding of how to be saved, so we have no plans to participate,” King told Religion News Service.
Many times evangelical and ecumenical can be completely incongruent or totally incompatible, and as a Baptist, we would be wise to know when they are both.